Episode 92: Dear Melissa- Answering Questions About Defining Product Terms, Founders Relinquishing Control, and Transitioning into Leadership
In this Dear Melissa segment, Melissa answers subscribers’ questions about whether or not having clearly defined terms and a common language within an organization matters, how to convince founders to hand over the product reins and hire an interim CPO, and how to convince your team and leadership that you belong in your new role as Director of Product.
Have a product question for Melissa? Submit one here and Melissa may answer it in a future episode.
Subscribe via your favorite platform:
Q: Do you have any advice on how to establish a common language? [1:58]
A: I think there's a lot of confusion about some of the terms we use in product management. The way we term things sometimes gets in front of the work, and then we spend all our time miscommunicating about it. That doesn't help anybody. Here’s what I would do to tackle this issue, starting with defining requirements. [2:28]
Q: As a product consultant, what's the secret to convincing founders to give up control of a product that was a labor of love? How do you best convince a founder that having an interim CPO is worth the investment? [7:05]
A: A lot of founders are actually well positioned to be a CPO instead of a CEO. If that's the route they want to take, and they're well equipped to step into that role, more power to them. You have to remember that this is still their baby, and you have to empathize with it extremely deeply. Gaining their trust is the secret to convincing them to let you handle it. Tune in to learn how. [8:08]
Q: How can I build the trust of my team of four product managers and show leadership that they made the right choice with me? [16:37]
A: The role of a director of product is to set the strategy around their product line or their group of products. You're really focusing on those middle layers of strategy. You are setting the vision for those products that you're overseeing. You are making sure that they're well understood by your team. You're not giving them orders, but you're giving them direction and you're painting that picture. Learn how you can build their trust here. [17:16]
Resources
Melissa Perri on LinkedIn | Twitter
Transcript:
Melissa:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Dear Melissa. Today we've got three questions for you. One is about how do we define requirements and what do we do when people are not speaking the same language? We've got another one about being a product consultant and how do you get founders to give up their baby and let you manage it. And then lastly, we've got a transition into a director of product management and what do we do to make sure that our product managers are trusting us and we can build our team? Well, great questions on here. And I wanna remind you that if you wanna submit a question to me, I'd be happy to answer it. You can leave me a voicemail at dearmelissa.com and we go through these all the time and try to figure out what are your burning questions. So without further ado, so without further ado, let's dive into our first question and go to the phones. This is Patrick's question. Dear Melissa, I've come to notice that there's a lot of fuzzy talk going on when talking about requirements. I'm A. from germany, and B. from a usabilty engineer background, and we literally have at least 3 separate words there for requirements. I want people to be talking about the same concepts when doing business, but I dont want to appear condescending, or like a, excuse the language, smartass when doing so. Do you have any advice on how to tackle this topic, if you even consider it a valid problem? Regards from Hamburg, Patrick.
Well, thank you so much for that question, man, this one kind of resonates with me because it's not only requirements, I think that we don't define well the term requirements. Let's get into, I think there's a lot of, uh, confusion about some of the terms we use in product management. And what happens is that the way we term things, it sometimes gets in front of the work and then we spend all our time just miscommunicating about it. And uh, that doesn't help anybody. So it's really important to have a common language. So if you think that there's a misunderstanding, then it's probably getting in the way of your work and we need to address that. So let's specifically talk about requirements right now and let's break down what that word means. Uh, sometimes we think of requirements in an old school fashion, like waterfall requirements, uh, but we still have requirements in product management.
So let's talk about what that actually means. First we need to talk about the problem. So we start from a problem, then we validate. Then when we validate that that problem actually exists, we need to discover a solution for it. Once we discover that solution and we test that solution and we make sure that's the right solution, now we're gonna get requirements that are needed to build that solution fully. And that's where the term requirements comes in. So we're gonna have a couple different requirements, right? We're gonna have user requirements, what's needed in an actual solution to be successful. And that comes from proven testing. Then we might have requirements as it relates to dependencies or how it's going to work from a business perspective. So there are requirements like we need to put analytics on this so that as a business we can actually track these things and make sure that this is working.
You know, that's a requirement as well. So requirements at the end of the day are things that are proven that we need in a solution in order to make it successful. And those can come from the business and those can come from the users, but they have to be proven. They're not just, I made this up and I wanna build this product and I haven't done any testing and here's all the requirements for somebody to build. That doesn't work. So if you feel like people are not understanding what that term means, I would sit them down and walk through, This is how we build products, here's how we validate what goes into a solution, this is what we need. And then of course we have some stuff on the business side that we need to make sure happens. We've got dependencies, we've got business, um, business dependencies on making sure that this works with everything else and it goes smoothly.
That's really what requirements are at the end of the day. So this gets into a bigger discussion too, about how do we make a common language for our organization? Uh, and we've had to do, I've had to do this a lot, like minimum viable product is probably the most misunderstood term ever. So what we do is we sit down and we define it and we share it with the company and then we say, let's talk about this. What is a requirement? What's not a requirement? What's a hypothesis versus a requirement? Let's go through all of these different scenarios and so we all feel like we understand what that means and then we'll talk about requirements and how they get in there. You might wanna even raise this up a little bit. It sounds like to me, and I don't know your situation, but it sounds like to me that there's probably people in the organization who are passing down requirements and I'm putting that in air quotes, even though you can't see me <laugh> requirements on what they want to see built, but they're not doing the testing, they're not doing those things.
In that case, you're probably gonna have to take a couple steps back and actually talk about the whole process of how do we build products? Okay, here's what you want in that solution. Can you tell me why? What's that gonna do for our business? What's the problem that you think we're solving? I'm gonna go out and make sure that this is actually true and it fits into our roadmap. And then I will come back to you and make sure that we have the business perspective on these things to make sure that whenever we do build this, or if we build this, it's probably more appropriate. Uh, we make sure that we are tackling the things that you need to get done as well. So you probably need to backtrack quite a bit first and kind of understand like maybe this isn't a terminology problem. Maybe this is a whole process problem where people just don't understand how product works and you might have to raise it up a couple levels.
But if it's just a, you know, terminology thing, then it's easy. We just make the definition, we talk about it, we take it on a roadshow. We get everybody to understand that this is how we define those things. We put it in a wiki, we put it where people can actually find it. And it's probably good to have like a glossary or a terminology of the way that you define things for your company. That's pretty important too. So hopefully that answers your question. But yeah, mixing up words and not having the same language in a company is definitely a recipe for disaster.
All right, second question. Dear Melissa, I just heard you on a podcast for the first time and loved your content. Funny enough, I was a VP of product at Athena Health in 2020 and learned that you consulted for the company a year or so prior. I have a 20 plus product career in product management and pivoted into product strategy consulting a couple of years back. What I've learned from my journey is that a lot of SaaS startup founders struggle to see the value of product management after all the product is their baby and they'd have to let go of it and give it to somebody else. This is regardless of whether they haven't yet found product market fit with their flagship product or whether they want to expand their already successful portfolio.
So here's my questions. One, as a product consultant, what's the secret to convincing founders to give up control of a product that was a labor of love? And then two, how do you best convince a founder that having an interim cpo, the role that I play these days is worth the investment? Many of them wanna jump straight into hiring the perfect cpo, but as you know, that takes time. Two good questions. And I've definitely been in your shoes before many, many, many, many times. Um, here's the first thing. This isn't easy and it's probably why I don't work with every single company that reaches out to me. Uh, if a founder is not willing to give up control of the product and they want to take a role, that's not a cpo, Let's also put that out there. Some founders wanna be the chief product officer and that's still their baby.
They still get do product and that's okay. I think a lot of founders are actually well positioned to be a CPO instead of a ceo. And if that's the route they wanna take and they're well equipped to step into that role, more power to them, awesome. Uh, but if they wanna be a ceo, it's different than being a cpo. But when you work with a founder, you have to understand like, you know, I can read by your tone, it's their baby and they don't wanna let go of it. You have to remember that and you have to empathize with it extremely deeply, right? You have to be like, I understand that this is your baby. And also understand that if you are the CPO and they are the founder, it's their vision that's going to win. You're just there to figure out the details and the strategy and be a partner for learning.
So a big part of this is by gaining trust, right? What's the secret to convincing founders to give up the control of a product, gaining their trust, right? Showing them that you have their best interest in line. Here's the other thing. When a founder creates a SAS startup or you know, whether it's big or small, they have a lot of equity on the line. This is a life changing product for them. As product consultants, we come in, we may get, we usually get paid cash, right? We may get a little tiny sliver of stock that's occasional, right? They have like 40 to 50%, sometimes 60 to 80% of the company. If that company exits for, you know, millions of dollars, that's millions of dollars to them. That is life changing. And I don't think we take that into account. So when people don't wanna give up control of their product, it's probably cuz they have so much stuff on the line, right?
And you have to really empathize with that and show them that you understand that you understand that this is life changing for them and that this is their baby and you're not going to, you know, murder their baby, you're gonna help grow it. You wanna be a co-parent, right? You wanna help grow this thing, but you never have that much on the line that a founder does. And that's why founders are reluctant to give up control of their product. They wanna make sure it succeeds. Now eventually, if a founder does not wanna be a CPO and they wanna be a ceo, they do have to give up control of their product. So what you wanna do is start to talk to them about where, where does their role end and where does yours begin and how will you help them there? But you have to ease 'em into it.
Usually it's very rare that a founder just like you know, says, This is your problem now and walks away. Uh, what they're gonna do is they're gonna probably be really involved and as they trust you, they're gonna give up more and more control over to you, but you have to win that trust. So how do you do that By being a partner. Sit down, explain your vision to me. Um, where do you see this going? What have you? Like what have you studied? You know the market better than I do. I just came in to help you. This is your baby. What's your vision? Can I help you write out that vision? Can we start to, to poke holes in it? Um, just to see if there's enough explanation around it. By doing these things, we're gonna make sure that all the people on these teams are going to be working in line with your vision and I wanna make sure they understand it just as well as I do.
And that you do so that they can do their best work and make sure this baby wins, right? These are the conversations that you need to have with them. So you need to spend a lot of time making sure that you are on the same page with them. Uh, and it's hard to bring up not being on the same page if you're not on the same page with them too and you can see a really big opportunity and they just don't wanna listen to that. You either one, have to like slowly work your way into gaining their trust so that they listen to you. Or two, I wouldn't work for that company because if you're not gonna be on the same page as a founder, you're not gonna be successful. You only wanna work for companies where you can, you know, be in sync, right?
And that doesn't mean that being in sync is the founder gonna give you totally control, total control immediately, but you wanna start small and you wanna start to win trust and get them wins. Another good way to start is by saying, you know, looking at the low hanging fruit and figuring out how to get them some wins so that they start to trust you. What's been your biggest frustration with the teams? What's been going on here? Let me see if I can solve some of those problems. These are all good ways to start to win over founders onto your side. So really it's building trust. That's the secret to convincing founders to give up control over a product. And it's not when you walk into the door on day one and they might think they need help, um, and they're gonna come to you and say, I need delivery help.
That's usually how they, they freeze it, but you have to figure out what the problem is, but you also have to figure out if they're receptive to hearing that problem and not, not everybody is ready for a CPO to come in. Not every founder is ready. I found that forcing people is not the best way to do these things, but when they are ready, it's a great opportunity to find a lasting partnership with somebody who's built a product and seeing it grow and being a partner there. So your second question, how do you best convince a founder that having an interim CPO is worth the investment? Many of them wanna jump into hiring. Yeah, that's true. A lot of people want somebody there full-time and they're worried that if you come in and you just, you know, stem the gap for a little bit when you leave, it could have a cultural implication.
So when I play interim CPO roles, I know too that my job is not to recreate the entire strategy of this company because whatever CPO comes in full-time is going to want to do that. So if I do that, I'm gonna screw that person over or they're gonna rip it up in a reaction and wanna go their way. So my job as an interim CPO is to figure out what can I do for the next six months to gain leverage to grow this company as much as possible and help it continue growing while I'm hiring in somebody. But I'm never trying to insert myself as an indispensable person, right? I'm going away some day that CPO coming in. I want them to be successful. So I spend all of my time as an interim CPO setting that person up for success. So that means though, I might have to do a little bit of strategy work and usually it means prioritizing what we've got on the plate, figuring out an overarching rough strategy.
But that doesn't mean that I'm going to set it in stone and do so much work where that strategy is inflexible and we can't figure out how to change it when this person comes in, I'm not doing an enormous amount of work here. I'm doing a little bit of work to just get our roadmap for the next like six months straight so that we're building the most high impact things. And when somebody else comes in, they can actually look at that and say, Great, I don't have to worry about doing this six month roadmap right now. Uh, I get to spend my time on strategy and that's why I hire a cpo. I want them to spend their time on strategy. So I'm doing a little bit to get us, you know, to hold over us for six months while it takes to hire in that cpo.
And that's how I think you explained that that benefit there right? Is I'm gonna make sure the wheels don't go off the train, the trains have wheels. Train doesn't go off the track. I'm making sure the train doesn't go off the track while we hire a cpo. The CPO searches will take you sometimes six to 12 months depending on the stage of the company. Sometimes it's shorter if you have a smaller company or not hiring as experience of a cpo. But in scale up companies, when I've hired CPOs before, it could be anywhere from six months to year. So, you know, the best way there to convince somebody is I'm gonna make sure that I know what a CPO wants to see when they're in here and I'm gonna make sure that they're set up so that they're super effective when they get in here and they have all the information they need.
And that's how I've convinced founders or CEOs to, to bring me in. Um, usually they're asking for my help because they realize something's wrong and they need a cpo. And if I'm playing that role, though I know I'm not the CPO and I'm not trying to duplicate the CPO's efforts here. I'm trying to just make sure that I leave the company better than when I found it and that I can hand over the stuff to that CPO and be a good partner for them and be a sounding year when they don't have, you know, maybe a lot of people in the organization who talk product, I'm gonna be that person for them when they start and I wanna make them as successful as possible. So that, that's what I think we have to remember when you're playing the role of an interim CPO is you're not there forever. So what can you do to make sure you're hiring in somebody? And I will never play an interim CPO role unless they're, they're actively hiring for a cpo. That's my role. Um, and what can I do to just make sure everybody is working together well and we've got some runway so that when we do get that kick ass CPO in there, they can go right, like they can start running, they can do their jobs.
All right, last question. Dear Melissa, last month I hit the proverbial jackpot in my career path. I made the transition from product manager to director of product at a new organization. Only one problem. I've never been a people leader before. I've been a successful product manager for the past few years on the IC track, but had a company that never really wanted me to take a leadership role knowing that I hadn't had the people management before. So I've started reading books, listening to podcasts, et cetera, but nothing can really prepare you for the role director of product. So I ask of you, how can I build the trust of my team of four product managers and show leadership that they made the right choice with me? Well first off, congratulations because sometimes it's really hard to go from IC to director of product. So you did land the jackpot and you're well on your way into the leadership roles of product management.
So that's the first problem is getting the job. And you did that. Now let's set you up for success. The role of a director of product. Your job is to set the strategy around your product line or your group of products that you're looking at. So you're really focusing on those middle layers of strategy. You are setting the vision for those products that you're overseeing, you are making sure that they're well understood by your team, you're giving them direction, you're not giving them orders, but you're giving them direction and you're painting that picture. So make sure that you are spending time on that and that's what leadership wants to see too. They wanna see that you are forward thinking and thinking about, you know, the strategy of the pieces that you own, bubbling that up to leadership, communicating that down well to the PMs, that's what they're really looking for.
So when we talk about my strategy stuff that I put out there, strategic intents, initiatives, options, you are over the initiative area. So you're gonna be crafting initiatives, you're gonna be working also across other directors of product to craft those initiatives. So remember, it's not just your products that you need to be in tune with, it's all of the products and you have to, well understand how you fit into the portfolio of overarching products. So spend a lot of time getting up to speed for that. Spend a lot of time crafting the right initiatives. Make sure that the initiatives are aligned to strong product visions over what you see. Make sure those product visions bubble up into that portfolio and are going to achieve the portfolio goals. That's important. That type of communication with leadership is important as well. So making sure that they understand that you have, um, a vision for your products, you know how it fits into their goals.
Keep communicating to them about how your stuff is going to reach the business goals. That's what leadership wants to see. Now from a team perspective, how do you gain their trust? Um, setting that vision and making sure that, you know, you're not wishy-washy about it, you're setting it, you're taking into their into account their advice. So make sure that you're asking your team about it. You don't wanna go up on high and be like, Oh, I created this vision in a room in a closet and then I came and I told you all about it. Like, no, talk to your team about it. Make sure that you spend a lot of time at the beginning. Now understanding what your team understands, right? What do they know? Get information from them. Make sure that you understand what their problems are. Make sure that you understand what they're working on.
The more you talk to your team, the more they're going to trust you. So that's really important as well. So talk to your team. Listen, spend a lot of time listening before you spend time visioning, right? Make sure you listen, talk to a lot of people. Then couple different things When it comes to people management, you wanna be the buffer for your team from all the swirl at the executive level and the leadership levels. You do not wanna be dumping all of your problems on your team. And this is one of the biggest mistakes I see new people managers make. They get all the swirl and all the executives like yelling at each other or all these like crazy prioritization fights and then they just come to their team and complain about it. Or they're not sheltering their team from it. So their team feels it as well.
And people are coming over to their PMs and like telling them work on different things. You need to step in and nip that at the bud really early. You wanna make sure that you're sheltering them from all of that stuff. And if you do that well, your teams are going to really appreciate that cuz so they can focus on their work, right? That's what leaders do. We shelter people from the swirl. So make sure you're doing that. And then lastly, you wanna coach them. You wanna be an ear for them. You wanna make sure that you find out what they wanna develop and you give them the opportunities to do that. You find them coaching opportunities. You, you sit there and you review stuff with them. You give them advice when needed. Um, but you also let them make their own decisions, right? You need to be able to steer this group and allow them to grow and allow them to make the decisions rather than saying like, you must do this unless somebody's really struggling and not cut up for the job.
They're, you're gonna need to hand hold them a little bit, but assess where each one of your PMs are and try to understand like I can let these people run with it and give them light direction. These people over here are struggling really hard. They're gonna need to be leveled up more. I need to spend more time with them. I need to get them, you know, more coaching opportunities with me. I need to tighten my constraints around them so that they have firmer direction and that way they can thrive and then I can lessen those constraints as they get more senior. So definitely think about that as well. Um, I think that's incredibly important too. So, you know, being a people manager is hard. You gotta do refuse. Now you've got like all of these different, you know, all of these different things to actually look into, uh, compared to being in IC where you just really worry about you and your stakeholders and people around you.
So I want you to really take into account like you're, you're now coaching people. Um, you wanna make sure that you're developing them into strong product people and your people are going to be a reflection of you as a leader. So definitely spend time with them. That's what you do at a director level role as CPO role. I don't wanna see the CPOs in the weeds coaching all of the, you know, individual contributor or product managers. That's not their job, but that is your job as a director of product. So make sure that you do that. Also, there's lots of really good books out there. Um, I would read the book Strong Product People by Petra, um, Villa, we had her on the podcast talking about this, but, uh, they really do talk about, she talks about how to be a product leader, especially for directors, a product and how to develop great product managers.
So I think that's gonna be a great guide for you on being a good director of products. So definitely go listen to that. All right, that's it for us on dear Melissa this week. If you have any questions for me, please go to dear melissa.com and leave me a voicemail, let me know what you're thinking about and I'd be happy to answer it on a further podcast episode. Also, if you like this podcast, uh, please leave us a review. Please go to wherever you go to Product Manage. Cut that. Please go to whatever app you use to listen to podcasts, Make sure that you subscribe to a podcast so you never miss an episode. And then leave us a review and let us know what you think. I'll see you next time.