Episode 42: Making the Case for Product Operations with Denise Tilles
Denise Tilles is an experienced product leader, consultant, and coach who has spent her career helping organizations transform opportunity into product vision. She specializes in product strategy, organizational design, and product operations. Denise joins Melissa Perri on this week’s episode to argue strongly in favor of the need for Product Operations as organizations start to scale.
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Here are some key points you’ll hear Melissa and Denise talk about in this episode:
How Denise got started in the field of product operations. [1:57]
Denise and Melissa explain why they strongly disagree with Marty Cagan’s recent post characterizing Product Ops as simply “process people.” Product ops helps organizations actually scale, and helps teams inform, deploy, and monitor their product strategy. [3:20]
There are three tenets of product operations: business and data insights, customer and market research, and processes and practices. Processes and practices concerning areas of product management are especially important as they allow teams to get the work done. Clear roadmaps prevent individuals within organizations from working in silos, and contribute to a healthy product culture. [4:54]
Many organizations have lots of differing styles of roadmaps that make it difficult to reconcile critical decisions. What they should be doing instead, Melissa says, is have processes in place that standardize strategic decision making with clarity and transparency. Denise remarks that these aspects of product management are being left to the wayside, putting unreasonable expectations on product managers, and that that needs to change. [6:04]
Product operations teams are very powerful in that they help product leaders think about how they are measuring, what they are doing consistently, and how they can be truly transformative. Product ops is about enabling product leaders and managers to make decisions. [9:44]
When looking for a product analyst, you need to hire someone who’s great at crunching the numbers and more importantly, good at extracting actionable insights. You need a diplomatic person who can help product managers understand how and why the data is being used by the product team. [11:45]
Denise and Melissa talk about democratizing customer research. It puts time back into the product manager’s hands so they can focus on more important matters.[15:00]
Product managers often don't focus on the market research, but to understand different trends, or how the market is moving, they need to. [18:46]
The skillsets of product ops people have to be diverse because product ops has three disparate functions. “You're not going to hire the same type of person as a product ops person across this entire area. It's more about really figuring out what you need in each one of those cases and then going from there,” Melissa says. [24:18]
Resources
Denise Tilles | LinkedIn | Twitter
Transcript:
Melissa:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the product thinking podcast. Today, we are going to be talking about product operations and I'm joined by my co author of our new product operations book. That's coming out, Denise Tilles.
Denise:
Hello. How are you, Melissa?
Melissa:
I'm doing good. Good to chat with you about this Denise.
Denise:
Yes, I love talking about it.
Melissa:
For our audience, before we dive in, do you want to give a little background on yourself and what you've been doing with product operations?
Denise:
Yeah. Um, I have been in product for over 10 years. Most of that on the operating side, and I actually experienced product operations firsthand when I was VP of product at a B2B SaaS, wasn't really called product ops in, but really saw firsthand the power that it brings to a product team. And since then kind of realized, oh, that's what we were doing, product operations. So I'm really excited to sort of share that with other teams and other companies. I've been doing that for the past year and a half as a consultant and coach.
Melissa:
Great. Yeah, I'm pretty passionate about this topic too. And I think, you know, through our workout products, labs, uh, you and I both seen it work really, really well at a variety of companies, uh, growth stage through the enterprise. And to me, this is like the glue that makes product management scale and makes it work. So I was pretty surprised to read an article by Marty Cagan, and that came out yesterday from, uh, when we're recording this on help product ops as a joke. And he talks about how it's just process people to know you feel the same way, but, uh, I wanted to jump on this podcast, uh, you know, with you to talk through this because I, one, I'm a little, I'm a little annoyed by this post, honestly, because I think it's vilifying a whole entire subset of product management in a career that people have. There are directors of product operations. There are VPs of product operations. There are tons of product ops people out there doing amazing work to make sure that product operations can help the chief product officers and help organizations actually skill. And Marty's kind of writing it off as, you know, just process and people who are like over optimizing, uh, for, you know, scaling process and making sure that everything process is optimized. And that's not what I've seen. No,
Oh, not at all. And there's some really big companies that have introduced product operations of scale, like Stripe and Pendo Calendly amplitude I could go on. So there's a lot of really important companies that see the value of this and continue to invest in it. So I was surprised too.
Melissa:
Yeah. Like I, so let's maybe break down what we believe is product operations for the audience. Um, so let's, for those of you who didn't read the article yet, it's called process people on the spg.com blog. Um, and Marty kind of lays out that he's seen at organizations that people who are called product op uh, product operations, people, uh, are being hired in massive amounts into these organizations to really dictate the different processes around specific roles, like product owners and scrum masters, and, you know, kind of almost get into almost like what the agile at scale people are doing. Right. How do I keep dictating the product management processes and they're treating process like a religion. Uh, and so he's basically saying product operations is a joke. So, so what, so what do we kind of see product operations as, um, we believe there's three core tenants of a product operations and Denise w so how would we outline those three things? Yeah.
Denise:
Well, I love the way that you framed it. So succinctly, yesterday, it was just it's around helping teams in forum and deploy and monitor their product strategy. And how do we support teams with the best inputs toward that? Right. So it's three tenets, really three pillars, right? So business and data insights, the quantitative customer and market research, the qualitative and processes and practices. And, you know, when you think about processes and practices, it's not sort of a Dick tot that has to be a certain way across a large organization. It's more about just the supporting aspects. Uh, someone told me they, they consider it methods, right? So just enough, enough process around certain, um, areas of product management to support the teams that they're not spending precious cycles thinking about how do we work together, but let's get the work done. Right. So I see this a lot with roadmaps. What's the template we're using? How are we deploying it? How are we working with our cross-functional stakeholders? And I've seen really large organizations get tripped up in this and people end up working in silos and it can really start contributing to a damaged culture.
Melissa:
Yeah. I think that's a huge part of it. And to me, that's the process piece that, you know, Marty is kind of getting at, but, uh, the teams that he seen doing this, I just think they're doing it wrong. Uh, we, we really talk about like, how do you standardize the things that cut across different teams and cut across different units of the organization? So like you said, how do we standardize roadmap so that we don't have 40 different roadmaps? Like, we've both seen chief product officers. We've, we've been in this position before, right. Like you and me, when we come in and try to like set strategy at these organizations, uh, you walk in, you say, what's going on? Where are the roadmaps? And somebody gives you like 50 different types of roadmaps. And you're like, wow, okay. So this is a completely different level, um, you know, initiative from this level and this other roadmap.
And wow, this one is organized, not the same way that this one is. And where are the goals of metrics on that one? Uh, and when you try to reconcile those types of things, you don't have the transparency into what's going on in the organization to be able to make critical product decisions, uh, that will impact your strategies. So I feel like when we talk, you know, servicing, uh, process, like when we talk about creating process in organizations or, uh, standardizing these different types of artifacts, or figuring out a cadence for reviewing strategy in these processes, uh, you know, we're not talking about overdoing it, um, or like being like, oh my God, this is the way your backlog must look at. Like, yeah. Um, but we, we talk about it as like, how do we make sure that this process enables us to make strategic decisions and have clarity and transparency into what we do?
Denise:
Exactly. And when I work with companies and come in there and take a look at whether they have product operations enabled, or they're thinking about it, it's the type of processes that get left by the wayside. And, and, um, I was looking at a, uh, article that, uh, shrin Abbas from Calendly had, um, put out recently ended up podcast. And, um, you know, it's around having the empathy for the product manager. We're asking them to be ever more, you know, almost octopus, like, you know, be commercial, be strategic, you know, be very technical, make sure you're delivering. And there's just more and more we're putting on product managers and product offices. Aren't having empathy to help support them and enable them. So the things that I tend to see falling by the wayside are really important aspects of product management. You can call them process or not.
Right. So the practices, speaking to customers, I'll come in and work with a company like, oh, we're talking to customers, they're joining sales calls every week. So this is almost like a, do you want fries with that kind of conversation versus tell me about how you're using this. Tell me about what your problems are. Let's talk about how you're actually using this consistent inputs of data. Yes, we're data-driven will show me what that looks like. Oh, well, it's really hard to get it and we don't have it instrumented. So you just dig a little bit deeper at these kinds of things that really need to be enabled to help support product managers just don't exist. Templates. We talked about being more experiment experimental. What does that look like? Well, we don't really have time for that. We're not really sure how to do it. We have user research, but they're backed up. So it just doesn't get done. I could go on. So there's a lot of things that if we can just put a little bit of process and support around really can kickstart these PM's into really focusing on the things that matter the strategy that enables customer value and business growth.
Melissa:
Yeah. I completely agreed. I like what you're saying. It's all about enablement here. And I think that even more critical part of product operations that, you know, we don't really, we're talking about process right now, but, you know, we, we think of these three areas as, you know, getting internal data and surfacing it up to make strategic decisions, getting external data on our customers and their needs to help make strategic decisions in the processes that enable it. I think it's really the game changer for me when I've seen a lot of this is the data pieces, right? Both the internal and external.
Denise:
Huge absolutely. Um, you know, I've worked with companies and been at companies where you get in. It's like, literally none of this is instrumented to the product. So it's like, okay, we've got to go back to not even, you know, step one, but step a, how do we get this instrumented to make sure we can start getting a baseline? So that's going to take you quite a while. Um, I've seen many teams working around this, not even taking the time to stop and instrument the, um, uh, event tracking or whatever, uh, to be able to start measuring the quantitative inputs that should be informing your strategy. So, um, product ops is really, really powerful in this sense. They're like, wait a minute, we've got to start with, how are we measuring this? How are we doing this consistently? And, um, it can really be transformative.
Melissa:
Yeah. And I think this data thing, you know, it's such a game changer and especially for product leaders. So product operations is really about enabling product leaders to make decisions and product managers to make decisions. Um, so, you know, when a product leader comes into an organization or when they start as a new CPO, or even if they're there already, honestly, they just need this data to make decisions. Uh, one thing that I hear from product managers all the time is that they don't have enough time. Like you said, they're like turning into these octopus people who are, who are doing too many things. And one of the big things that they do is, uh, try to get the data out of the systems because they didn't set up the systems to actually scale or provide the things they need.
Denise:
Exactly. Or maybe it's been done incorrectly, or they'd had several large product introductions. And like, and that's usually I've seen in my experience, um, the thing that's left on the roadside, I'll get to that later, you know, we'll add the tracking and it's like, eh, we need to know right away how this is performing. How do we define what success looks like? And those things get left to be defined later if at all. And that's where you're sort of releasing and moving on and releasing and moving on and not really thinking about the full value can get out of a product, um, or a solution in that sense.
Melissa:
Yeah. And so Denise, you have hired a bunch of the product operations analyst into this data role. Um, you've helped the organizations actually stand up, you know, what this actually looks like and how to get the reporting out. What do you look for? Sorry, let me cut that for a second. That's okay. We can always screw up and then somebody will fix it too. So please get that. So Denise, when you go out and actually hire these roles, what do you look for in a product operations analysts that deals with the internal data and how does that work in setting it up in an organization?
Denise:
Right. So, um, it's interesting, I'm working with a large retailer right now and thinking about the, the right hires to make. And, um, it's not necessarily, you're going to be instrumenting a lot of the product engagement metrics, but you're also going to be accessing, um, inputs from cross-functional, um, departments across the org like finance. Um, you may not be generating those numbers, but you need to pull them in to sort of review them and have that sort of a product lens on what that means to the decisions you're making. Right? So you need to be able to hire someone who's really at, um, crunching the numbers, but really more importantly, how they can, uh, extract the, so what is what I call it out of that what's the actionable insight. I want a product analyst to say, to tell me, to tell me as a product manager, here's this opportunity, or here is a challenge that a lot of our users are having.
This could be an opportunity if we experimented with a, B or C and a person like that is worth their weight in gold, and I've hired a few of them like that, but they're really hard to find. And you need someone that's almost a diplomat to, to be able to get that data from across the org, help them understand how we're using it as a product team, why we're using it as a product team and making sure that they're on board with that. So it really is sort of a diplomat, um, number person, and then someone who's strategic and can relate, uh, have critical thinking about what this means and what they're looking at till that story.
Melissa:
So what types of roles or backgrounds would we hire these people from?
Denise:
That's a great question. Everybody asks me that it's hard to find. Um, it could be someone who'd been on, um, maybe a data science side. It could be someone that maybe had been in, um, market research on a more crunchy number, crunchy type of way. Um, I hired folks from, um, ad ops, believe it or not, and they were great, but I think what, what really is the key here is having someone at the director level who really knows how to do this and can sort of implement an I do you do type of situation. So you need to have, you know, sort of good clay in a sense, people who have that mindset, but it can be shaped. Um, but it's a hard role to hire for. It really is. And then when I work with companies, they say, well, we want process too. So we'll find that person who can do both. And, and in my mind, that's kind of a purple squirrel, really, really hard to find, right? So when companies are thinking about product ops, they really have to think where the biggest deficit and opportunity is, and whether that's on the data side or the process side, hire into that, and then build out from there.
Melissa:
Yeah. And I think the point is to like, these people don't need to be product managers. Like that's not the same. I want them to have a product mindset because I want them to think about like the automating and scaling and empathy and, you know, understanding stakeholder needs. But, um, they're not sorry, let me cut that up. I'm like, my throat was like crazy, but they're not necessarily product managers. Um, and they don't need to be, they need to be really good at interpreting data and insights. I think the other point to make too, um, is they come with ideas of what we could work on or surfacing up insights, but they're not necessarily making those decisions. And I see a lot of teams, um, try to roll out this like separate product strategy role into product operations, or they say, oh, our product operations, people just end up being product managers. Like that's not the point of this role is just a Naval mint. It's just like helping to streamline and get insights up.
Denise:
Exactly, exactly. And the product manager is in the driver's seat and product operations was working closely with them on the enablement part of it. And I think that's the biggest takeaway there. And I think that's kind of an aha. You know, when we teach these workshops on product operations, people kind of, the light bulb kind of goes off like, okay, I get it. And it's not processor processing or just data for data's sake, but putting all those pieces together, having that empathy for the PM to help them be more excellent at what they do.
Melissa:
Yeah, exactly. And then we've also got this, um, kind of like customer side, right? We've got these grab the external data and bring it inside. So we've been talking a lot about instrumenting insights, either system up to the product managers into the product strategy, but then there's this whole piece about like standing up, how do we democratize customer research? Uh, do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Denise:
Totally. Yeah. So that's an aspect that gets me really excited thinking about, you know, how do we democratize, I think, as you said, the, um, the qualitative aspect of the information we're getting. So when I've been leading product teams and they've been able to have that precious time to talk to customers, they do the recording and where does it end up? It ends up sitting on their hard drive, right. Or they might share it out on slack to their, their, uh, colleagues, but who has the time to listen to a 45 minute recording or watch it and maybe pull out, you know, one nugget of information that might inform their product. So it just sort of sits in a silo and never get shared out, but what could it look like, right.
To have some sort of a database, uh, nothing, nothing heavy could be an air table of, of, you know, atomized, uh, insights that are tagged and, you know, saved at certain key points of the video that everybody can use. Not just product, not just everyone in the product team, but sales and marketing and, and the C-suite. So I'm a big believer in that. And sometimes people will ask, well, isn't that what UX research does it is, but sometimes they're overwhelmed too. So, you know, it could be a really great partnership between product ops and UX research to put this together. But I, a lot of, uh, upfront work, but I think it really pays off in the end.
Melissa:
Yeah. What we saw, um, one of the teams, it was actually like a design ops team that was under our big product umbrella at Athena health. What they ended up doing that I absolutely loved with this was they ended up creating a database of all of the customers that we had that opted into user research or alpha testing or beta testing. And this was amazing because we had the problem there where, you know, we've got 365 product managers, they were all going out and talking to the same hospital that they knew would say yes every single time. So we weren't actually able to get a good representative picture of here's all the different, uh, you know, problems that actually exist in hospitals or smaller, uh, you know, smaller medical practices and all that stuff. So, uh, Jen Cardella was leading this design ops team and what they did was build this whole database. They asked all of our customers to opt in how, how frequent they wanted to do it. And they built this whole database of our users and that allowed the product managers to see who would be open to be in contact and also keep track of who they contacted. Uh, and then also know who's the account manager that I have to go talk to so that we don't step on any toes if renewals are coming up and all that stuff. And it just made it so much more accessible for the product people to go out and do the right user research. And this is another issue that I hear all the time for product managers is that they spend all their time just recruiting people for user research.
Denise:
Exactly.
Melissa:
This cuts it down and puts them, it puts the time back in their hands to actually do the important work. So when we talk a lot about this side of this stuff, too, it's not about, um, you know, doing the user research for these people. It's about capturing those insights and making sure they're well known, because again, when you have 365 product managers or a thousand product managers, or 2000 at, a lot of these companies, uh, how do you know if somebody, you know, in a different business line was investigating the same problem you were, and he's actually have all those insights, you know, instead of going out and doing all that research over again, or you're refining your research, uh, based off the insights that you learned from somebody else.
Denise:
Exactly. I think what you hit on is so key the user management, so to speak of, of these customers. And I've been in organizations where sales is very protective, right. Of contacting these customers. And like you mentioned for renewal, or maybe there's some, some challenging, um, um, aspects of that relationship, but you know, the more transparency you can give to it and they understand, and it can see how often they've been, um, pained. And it can also be used as kind of a nice, um, uh, enhancement to the sales relationship to that. You know, our product development team would like to speak with you and nothing to do with sales, so done. Right. It could be very, very powerful.
Melissa:
Yeah. I really, I, I, there's also the, uh, hold on, let me cut that. I was like losing my train of thought. Um, there's also the market research side of it. Like I feel like sometimes as product managers, we don't pay attention to the market research side because we are very much like, Hey, we need to just, you know, talk to users, talk to users. And I'm not saying don't talk to users, definitely do that. But if you want to quantify what the opportunity for something is out there, or you want to learn about different trends or how markets are moving, you need the market research side of it as well. So actually getting to capital IQ and Forrester and Gartner and all these different things that are going to tell you how things are moving and help you bring that information into your strategic strategic decision-making is going to be key here. So that side of it combined with this democratizing the user research part from a perspective of sharing inputs, making it easier to get in touch with people. I think that's a huge pillar of product ops that we need to be able to do our jobs as product managers better.
Denise:
That's exactly it. And I, that's the area that I see most neglected too, when I come in and work with companies, um, or even when I'm working with, um, folks that have signed up for our workshop, that's the area they have the least experience in. And, um, it's often the area they're like, man, we'll get to it, but it's so important. It's so important.
Melissa:
Yeah. And I think one of the other things like, Hmm, Nope. I don't want to say that I'm thinking about it. So we kind of went over these three different pillars. We've got, um, you know, our internal data and insights surfacing up these reporting. Um, being able to really look at like, what's my cost per product, what's my revenue per product. How does that look over customer segmentation? What's the monitoring of our strategy? Are we on track for success? Um, we talked about what processes actually used for, and then we also talked about what we would do to democratize user research and customer research and market market research to inform it. Uh, and at the end of the day, though, this is going to look very different at different size companies. And one of the things that Marty said in his post was that we shouldn't really be scaling through process. We should be scaling through product leaders. Uh, I don't quite agree with that. What do you think?
Denise:
Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, I totally agree. Um, you know, being able to, uh, scale is through strong leadership, but your leaders are not the ones going out and instrumenting the event tracking in your product, right. Or they're not the ones sort of breaking down user research or thinking about what should our outcome driven roadmap look like, right. They're not doing that. And that's still going to be undone and, um, an opportunity to really help, um, jumpstart your product managers. So I see that is, is sort of a hand-in-hand type of opportunity. Um, yeah, that kind of struck me as well. Um, you have to have both, you have to have both and, and, you know, we've talked about sort of the process and practices and that product ops can help support sort of that community of practice and, you know, spot coaching when it's needed. And it's not taking the place of the leaders, you know, it's making sure what's the framework we're working with with our product managers are some taking this training and some are doing another, and are we speaking the same language and we're working with one another. So to me, it's about consistency and just keeping an eye on these things that are so easy to draw up when you start scaling, um, rapidly.
Melissa:
Yeah. And I should probably say too, it's more of a, let me start that over. I should say too. I agree with you. It's more of a, I don't agree with Marty, but I think what's happened is that he's seeing, and I know part of this history because we've talked about it in our podcast. Um, when Marty and I got together, was he seeing this at really large companies? And yeah, there's a bunch of large companies going through transformations that are not doing the right things and they need more product leaders for sure, like real product leaders. It's what they do is they typically take subject matter experts and then they turn them into product leaders. And then they want to scale through all these product owners on the ground floor who usually don't have experience. And they don't have enough leadership to actually make the strategic decisions. But whether you're a large company or a small company, you still need product ops. The other argument I would make is that if you're a growth stage company or a smaller scale up type company, like let's say you've got a hundred, 200 people and you've got a VP of product, you cannot afford to skill through product leadership, but you need, yeah. Like I don't have the money for that. Like product leader is costs so much money. We both know we have to hire them all the time for their clients. Like, and then when they find out what salaries they get, everybody's like, what?
Denise:
Yeah, we don't need that. We don't need that. But again, I think it's really kind of two different solution points there. Um, you definitely need the leadership to sort of point to where we want to go strategically and the opportunities in the marketplace, but how are we supporting that? And making sure we're focusing on the right things that are driving value and that's where product ops comes in. So it's really, it's a, it's a hand in hand type of moment. Yeah.
Melissa:
So I think like when you look at larger companies, um, prototypes, does, you know, PR you need to have all three pillars of product ops as well. I imagine they're starting from a process perspective, probably just cause they're not up to speed with that. Right? Like they, they just don't have the skill sets and people just don't have the tools that are needed to standardize these processes or work that way. Uh, but you don't get the full value of product ops unless you're doing the other data pieces of it as well.
Denise:
Exactly. That's exactly. You have to be doing sort of all of those, but, um, that's sort of a case study that we do in the workshop and it's like, okay, let's figure out the roadmap for, you know, a fictitious company and sort of give them a case study problem scenario. It's like, well, you know, we do need a process to mapping, but we don't have data informed for about, so it's, it's a hard choice and it's not black and white. So you, you know, you kind of have to, you know, pick, pick the biggest pain point and know that you're going to go back and solve for the second one. But you just have to get started with that. I it's typically when I've seen product operations, um, um, added to companies, it's really, you know, one by one by one, I I've rarely seen a whole team hired. What about you?
Melissa:
Yeah, exactly. Like I I've never seen anybody just go, oh, we're going to go out there and hire 20 product operations people. It's typically like we start with one data person. Maybe we get one person on the process side then, and then we get one person on the user research side and then we kind of build it up around there. Um, also think the of product ops people, because you have three very disparate functions, uh, they have to be different. They're not, you're not going to hire the same type of person as a product ops person across this entire area. It's more about really figuring out what you need in each one of those cases and then going from there.
Denise:
Exactly. And sometimes it's a matter of someone having a sort of, um, a hundred foot view in saying all of this exists in this company, but how do we harness it? Right. So, um, it doesn't necessarily have to be created from the ground up, but it's about making sure that these resources and these data inputs are harnessed and put together with that product lens to help support the product managers to be as strategic as they can to focus their work on the company strategy and vision, and just making sure that you're aligning to that value. It really comes back to that value customer value and business value.
Melissa:
Exactly. So maybe we'll just leave you with a couple companies that we see doing this well. Um, and then you can tune in for when the book is out. You want to be notified when it launches go to product operations.com and sign up for the mailing list. And we will, we will tease you with some little, little things up until it launches. Um, but you know, I, I could think of a couple off the top of my head, Denise, and then you chime in too, but we talked about Calendly. We talked about athenahealth Pendo Stripe. Uh, what other ones have we seen this way?
Denise:
The they've got a great guy there. Um, who came from Uber, who's really doing a lot of good stuff. Um, we're seeing, you know, they're like you mentioned, I can't really say the name yet, but a large retailers is planning to, um, add probably close to a team. So that's a little different from the one by one by one. Um, we've seen a lot of different companies and not just B2B, you've seen it at, um, B to C as well. It's really across the board a Facebook, I believe as well. Um, has that, so it's really, it's across the spectrum of different types of companies. So it's not a religion, it's not a process. It is enablement.
Melissa:
Exactly. And I think that's the point here. So that's our views on product operations. So Marty, we'd welcome a dialogue with you on this, but I think you just haven't seen people do it well, and I think you'd be really impressed if you did. So I agree that there's probably some people out there not doing product operations well, but we see so many people who are, and Denise and I firmly believe that this is something that really helps you scale. It's not just, you know, processed, hungry people over there, like agile coaches trying to optimize this stuff. It's really about enabling product leadership and enabling product managers to make the right decisions, to really inform your strategy, monitor your strategy and deploy your strategy throughout your organization. Like that's what we see is the powerful force. So we hope, uh, everybody on here will read our book when it comes out, product operations.com.
If you want to get ahead of it. And then Denise also teaches workshops on product operations, um, throughout the year. So if you go to products, labs.com and go to training, you can see when ones are coming up. She just taught one yesterday. So, uh, always teaching good PM 1 0 1 at PM limit scratch up, always teaching good product ops, uh, workshops on this stuff as well. Great. Thanks Melissa. It's a really great conversation. Yeah. Thanks for joining me, Denise. Uh, and we look forward to seeing you scratch it. I didn't say anything good. We're there. So thanks everybody go back. I was like, so thank you so much to these for joining me. This has been a really fun topic of conversation. I know we're both passionate about it. I'll just close it out. I'll just close it out. So definitely keep an eye out for workshops that are coming up and otherwise we will see you on the next step of the product thinking podcast that comes out every Wednesday. Make sure you subscribe and share this episode if you found it helpful. Thanks very much.